shot. and this is a retreat to team gingrich. they are going back to people who have largely been with him for a long time. and people have come over from his think tank. and so the normal way to campaign, of traveling states and going out, trying to get delegates, they're not able to do that. we have an e-book that i just finished, actually closed today with evan thomas, the second in our series. and in that e-book, we report that speaker gingrich was very surprised to find out how bad the finances were and that he was taken by surprise by how short they were of money. we're told that these 12 people that will be laid off at the end of the month, that that's roughly one-third of the full-time staff. >> mike allen, politico.com.

congratulations on the scoop. thank you for joining us on short notice. i appreciate it. now with my apologies for being late, "the last word." lawrence, i'm sorry. i got ahead of myself. i apologize. >> is that you, rachel? i've just been sitting here reading your book, "drift." i have a few questions. are you going home? could you come over here and talk about this? >> yes, i could come over to talk to you about it, and i'll give you back as many minutes as you want, man. >> it might cost you a minute of your time. breaking news. can't do anything about it. i will see you soon, rachel. >> thanks, i appreciate it. we have reports today that the homicide detective in charge of the trayvon martin case wanted to prosecute the shooter, george zimmerman, the night of the killing. george zimmerman's friend and defender is my first guest. >> i just want this guy arrested and so he can be brought to justice. >> justice. >> justice. >> justice.

>> justice. >> an arrest needs to be made for george michael zimmerman. >> martin's parents will take their fight to the steps of capitol hill. >> the public perception is there was a wrong done here. >> the police report has been leaked. >> this was an attempt by supporters of zimmerman to smear martin. >> it's still very contentious. >> there are still calls for zimmerman to be arrested. >> the police said they couldn't make an arrest. >> it is unbelievable how this has been handled. >> we have zimmerman's version, but we'll never have trayvon's. >> it's getting under way right now. the main event. >> today is the main event. >> it is the super bowl of supreme court cases. >> historic oral arguments regarding the individual mandate. >> day two at the supreme court. what a day. >> the justices came out kind of swinging. >> i think it's very doubtful that the court is going to find the health care law constitutional. >> if it gets struck down, it's

more muddled. >> people realize this is a constitutional moment. >> the phrase "individual mandate" connotes force. >> force is something they might not do on their own. >> people don't understand why there's a mandate. we did a terrible job explaining this bill. >> what's the plan "b"? >> if i'm president of the united states, i will repeal obamacare. i will repeal obamacare. >> anyone want to repeal obamacare? the latest developments in the killing of trayvon martin is that abc news is now reportin c that george zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting. we contacted detective chris cerino tonight. he is a 15-year veteran of the sanford police department and told us that he is observing the department's rules of not divulging any of the details of

his investigation. but detective cerino, the lead homicide investigator on the case the night of the shooting of trayvon martin, told us tonight that he feels very positive about the new investigations. he is very encouraged by those investigations, and his words, he is looking forward to the truth coming out. joining me now is joe oliver, friend of george zimmerman. joe, thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> first of all, how long have you known george zimmerman? >> i've known george about six years. i've known him ever since he started dating his wife. his mother-in-law is a close friend of the family. >> so you've only known him socially? >> yes, mostly socially. >> you've never been in the same workplace? >> you know, i'm sure that information is out there, but i know where he works. >> well, i've come across some information that indicates you both worked at the same place at

the same time. is that -- can you confirm that? >> you know, if you've come across that information, then you have come across that information. you know, i'm -- i am not working right now as i'm trying to help george. >> and how are you paying your expenses if you're not working? is someone paying you to do this for george? >> no, no one is paying me to do this for george. i've been trying to contact george since shortly after this happened because i was well aware of the firestorm of media interest that was going to happen. and i've been trying to contact him in order to offer my help because of my experience with the media. it wasn't until this weekend when i learned that he had retained an attorney that i contacted him through his attorney and spoke with him and validated for myself that i would be doing the right thing for standing up for george. >> joe, i want to get into how well you know him, and that's why i'm asking about the workplace. did you spend time together in the workplace? >> occasionally, yeah. >> okay. and have you ever been alone

with george zimmerman? >> yes, i have. >> in the workplace? >> yes, i have. >> and did you have private conversations with him over the years about his experience with law enforcement? >> not his experience with law enforcement, but i've had conversations with him about why he was a criminal justice major. i mean -- >> did you know him when he was arrested in 2005? >> no, i did not. >> did he ever tell you about that? >> no, i did not. but what i've learned from that arrest is that it was for coming to the aid of a friend who was being arrested as well. >> yeah. i can tell you exactly how that arrest was described by agent paul fleishmann. this according to "the miami herald." he wrote that zimmerman walked up to a pal under arrest and began chatting, refusing to leave. zimmerman cursed him, fleishmann wrote, before pushing him and causing a short struggle. that is the police account of that arrest.

>> well, you know, like i said, i wasn't there. and i would think that during that time george may have been drinking. george -- i don't know because as long as i've known him, he hasn't drank. >> do you know that george -- whether george had to enroll in anger management classes as a result of that case? >> no, i don't, but i would imagine that that would have been part of what he went through in order to avoid any charges sticking. >> and joe, you got to know him first in the workplace or when he became engaged through someone you knew? >> i got -- i've known him since he met his now wife and started dating her. >> and did that wife know that his previous fiancee had brought charges against him? >> i would think so. >> but you don't know that? >> no, i don't. >> did you know that? >> no, i did not. >> did your mother know that? because you know your mother. >> i don't know. you'd have to ask her. >> have you discussed that with

anyone, the charges of violence brought against him by his former fiancee? >> i've not had any reason to discuss the violent history he may have had -- >> well, joe, here's why we're discussing why he may have a violent history. >> lawrence, if you would allow me to answer your question completely and fully, then maybe we can go on with this discussion. now, as far as what happened with george before i met him, for me, that's irrelevant because whatever happened before i met him, he grew immensely from it to be a kind, gentle, giving and caring individual. one who i trusted with my own child. >> so you don't think that anyone's violent history has anything to do with evaluating their credibility when they are engaged in a violent act that becomes controversial? >> i think their violent history

becomes a factor when they don't alter their violent behavior. that's when i think that becomes a factor. i mean, why would we have this system where we give people an opportunity to learn from their mistakes and grow from them? and george zimmerman learned from his mistakes and grew from them. >> what mistakes did george zimmerman tell you about, and how did he tell you he grew from his mistakes? >> i'm not -- i'm just saying from what i have seen, the person that i know, the george zimmerman i know was not the george zimmerman who was arrested in 2005. it's documented -- if you've got the records there -- that he did go through anger management. what's the point of someone go through anger management if they're not going to alter their behavior? if george had to go through all of that, he was very successful. it was very successful. >> joe, don't be silly. >> i'm not being silly. >> you don't believe that anger management actually successfully manages the anger of everyone

who goes through anger management. you're not that naive about this. >> you know what? you're right, i'm not. and it doesn't work for everyone. and i didn't know that george had been through that. if he had been through that -- if he had been through that, again, if he had been through that, then i know it worked for at least one person. >> okay, quickly. you said that you talked to him about this for the very first time on saturday. did his lawyer arrange that discussion, and did his lawyer prp in that discussion? >> no, his lawyer did not participate in that discussion. >> okay. and you have said that you needed to have that conversation with him on saturday in order to go out and publicly defend limb. him. tell us now what you learned from george zimmerman on saturday that you did not know before your conversation with him, what was the turning point in your conversation with him that changed your understanding of this so that you could confidently come here and defend him about his actions in

something you did not witness? >> my conversation was between me and george. and being an african-american male and understanding what was going on with george's involvement in this and with my experience, i mean, first of all, i had to ask myself, what am i going to do for this person that i consider as a friend? i wasn't going to go off with just the information that was being fed out there that all we knew about what had happened which, again, if i didn't know george zimmerman, i'd be outraged myself. there's no question about that. >> joe, these are your talking points that you've used on every show. that is a noncredible answer. you have claimed -- >> that is your opinion. >> you've claimed to have a conversation with him that changed your understanding of the facts. and now you want to go out publicly and say i will not share with anyone what george zimmerman told me to change my opinion of the facts so that i could go out and defend him. i don't want to hear your talking points that you have used on every show you've been on.

charles blow here with me from "the new york times," he has some questions for you. >> mr. oliver, i'm just curious. you say you have known george zimmerman for six years. >> yes, i have. >> but you say you were close friends with george zimmerman. however, he never shared with you -- >> no, let's back up. no -- >> what you're not going to do -- >> you're going to continue mischaracterizing what i have said because a lot of times -- >> you said you were friends with george zimmerman. however, he never shared anything with you about his past, his violent past. he never shared with you whether or not he had been through any anger management courses. you said yesterday on television you have not physically laid eyes on george zimmerman since a week before this incident and have not to this day. how can you claim that you are a close friend of george zimmerman when none of that is true of you? you don't really know george zimmerman if you don't know those things about george zimmerman. and if you don't know where george zimmerman is, and if you

have not seen him in over a month and you have been out saying that george cannot stop crying which you cannot verify because you were not there, you have been saying nope, you have been saying that there are lacerations and his nose is broken. the only thing you know is what george may have told you because you were not there. you have not seen him for over a month. none of this rings true. you're playing people like they're stupid. and we're not. >> and i'm not a stupid man either. >> okay. >> i know what i'm putting myself up against. and i know the repercussions of this. i'm stepping forward for george because this was not a racial incident. i'm stepping forward for george because of how it has ignited all the racial tensions that we've had here for years. i understand everything that everybody is out there marching about because i've experienced it myself. and i wouldn't put myself on the line like this if i didn't know in my heart that george zimmerman was in a life-or-death struggle. i wouldn't be here -- i would

not be risking myself -- >> how do you know that in your heart? how do you know in your heart -- >> have you ever had a gut feeling? have you ever had a gut feeling? were you there? were you there? were you there? >> i'm asking you because you're the one who's saying you know in your heart that george zimmerman was in a life-or-death situation, and i'm saying that we don't know. i'm saying that we have to wait till the investigation is finished. and you are saying that you know that there was george zimmerman. you said on television that you know that that was george zimmerman's voice crying out for help, and you have only known george for six years, and you have only seen imin social situations. his mother told me that she is absolutely 100% sure that that is her son, and she has known that boy for 17 years. she has heard him cry many times from a child all the way up to 17. she is saying -- are you saying that you know george zimmerman's voice better than trayvon's mother knows his voice?

>> i'm saying, as lawrence has pointed out, i've had numerous conversations with george. because now -- >> have you ever heard george zimmerman scream? >> you know what? what is the point of you asking me questions if you're not giving me an opportunity to answer, okay? >> answer the question. answer the question. >> as far as george raising his voice, yeah, i've heard him raise his voice before. >> scream? >> not in anger. not in anger. >> scream? >> you know what? why are we having this discussion if you're not listening to my answers, if you're not giving me a chance to finish my answers -- >> you don't have an answer. you don't have an answer. >> joe, i've learned carefully. you've said for you the entire thing, your entire view comes down to a gut feeling. that's all it is. >> not just a gut feeling. >> joe, look. >> i've asked questions -- i've asked questions -- can you answer that? can i answer why it's a gut feeling and why i feel good about it? because it's an instinctual thing, and it's also because i've had what i have been told validated.

what you have heard so far that has been leaked has been validated -- was -- is validating what i've been told. there's other information that is yet to come out that we're waiting for the grand jury to pass down. okay? and when that comes down, then it's a question of whether or not anybody else believes what the investigation turns out. you know, we welcome -- we welcome the state's attorney looking into this. we welcome the grand jury. we welcome the justice department. we welcome all of this because first of all, this was not a racial incident. and we welcome all of this because we know that if we weren't sitting here talking about george shooting trayvon, we'd be talking about trayvon shooting george. >> hey, joe, we're going to get to that in a minute, the detail of that in a minute. i just want to explain to the od audience we've lost a little light in the studio. i want to get to the people who saw you on "hardball" yesterday. talking about this controversial

element of the 911 tapes in which people think they hear a racial slur. and for you it comes down to one letter, a "c" or a g," goon or the "c" word that goes with that. i just want to listen to what you told chris matthews about that. we'll try to get your light back while playing that type, so let's just listen to this. >> to me, it's a matter of interpretation of whether he's saying coon or goon. there are a lot of parts of this country where people proudly call themselves coons in louisiana particularly. i don't know too many people who younger than 40 who use that term as a racial slur. as far as the other word, goon, i've been informed by my 17-year-old daughter that that, among her peers, is a term of endearment. >> joe, as you know, there's been an awful lot of african-american reaction to that, starting with charles blow. let's hear his reaction to that now. >> well, i grew up in louisiana,

and i have never once heard an african-american refer to an african-american in that way. >> i never said african-american. >> you're going to let me finish. >> i will. >> and particularly, any sort of term of endearment, and particularly, why would you insinuate that george zimmerman was using that as a term of endearment, whether it's a "c" or a "g" after the "f" word about a person whom he found suspicious, about a person whom he was following with a gun? that is absolutely patently ridiculous. >> you know, the characterization of what happened out there has been ridiculous because the characterization that's been put out there is that george was following trayvon with his gun drawn. and that's not correct. >> nobody said that. i didn't say that. >> joe, you're just dodging the question. listen, we want to talk about this particular phrasing because it really has provoked a lot of outrage among african-americans. but joe, please -- >> i will answer the question. i will answer the question because it all boils down to

interpretation. >> joe, let me do this. let me take a break now so we can really fix your lighting during this commercial break. then we want to hear your answer to this because you know -- you know as an african-american man, there are millions of people in this country who are very eager to hear you on this. we're going to take a break right now. we're going to be right back. thank you, joe. [ male announcer ] lunchables peanut butter and jelly with a crispy rice treat. feed your great ideas. [ feedback ] ♪ it's peanut butter jelly time ♪ ♪ peanut butter jelly time ♪ peanut butter jelly time ♪ peanut butter jelly ♪ peanut butter jelly [ cheers and applause ] peanut butter paul. a legend is born. ♪ peanut butter jelly with a baseball bat ♪ cannot be contained. [ clang ] the all-new 2013 lexus gs. there's no going back. see your lexus dealer.

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chipmunk family reunion. someone stole the nuts. squirrel jail. justice! countless discounts. now that's progressive. call or click today. we're still working on getting the lighting right on joe oliver's studio in florida. and i really want to commend him for showing up tonight, unlike george zimmerman's lawyer last night who literally ran out of that studio last night rather than face this kind of questioning. joe oliver's going to hang in there. he's going to stay with us. charles blow will be back. we'll bring in jonathan capehart, have much more on this and we will be joined later by rachel maddow. we're going to be back.

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that's logistics. ♪ we're back with joe oliver in a badly lit orlando studio. sorry about that lighting down there, joe, and thank you very much. hey, it looks a lot better now. they worked on it. so look, we left it with you and charles blow here in new york discussing this thing you said about what it is that george zimmerman, your friend, said on the 911 tapes. remember, there's two words there, joe. there's two words. >> right. >> he zeptd just say goons as you might like this think it is. you mentioned your 17-year-old daughter has listened to it repeatedly. and she tells you that she loves george, but she's heard it both ways. >> and i've heard it both ways as well. >> so you've heard it with your own ears in the most offensive possible way. >> i've heard it both ways

listening to it. >> and remember the word that comes before it, "f'ing." that's not a term that tendses to lead into a loving term. >> goons has also been used as an insult to people as well. >> yes, it has, but which one do you think is worse for an african-american? >> well, of course the other one is worse for an african-american. >> why would you pretend it's an innocent thing on "hardball"? >> i'm not trying to justify it. what i am trying to point out -- >> if he said it. >> that's right. it is a terrible thing if he said it. >> all right. you know what? >> what i'm trying to point out is that george is not a racist. >> we're going to let everyone listen to that tape themselves. i've said what i've heard. i heard the worst word that you could hear on that tape. you've heard both. that's okay. i accept that from you. we don't have to argue it anymore, and i'm glad we've moved off that stuff you said about it yesterday. i want to bring in jonathan capehart who has been covering this closely. he's joining us by satellite.

he has some questions for you, too. >> hi, mr. oliver, thanks for being here. so you've said that you've known george zimmerman for six years. >> yes. >> and one of the things that we know about george zimmerman is that he's wanted to be in law enforcement, as you said in the beginning of the interview that he is a criminal justice major, right? >> correct. >> so did he ever talk to you about his desire to be in law enforcement? >> yeah. we talked about it briefly, about what he was majoring in and what he wanted to do with his future. and basically, he generalized it in that he was a criminal justice major, and he wanted to do something in law. >> but did he specify what exactly? because law enforcement is a very large field. >> yeah. i mean, he specified that, you know, he wanted to try and get into police work and possibly become a lawyer. >> mm-hmm. and so possibly get into police work. did try? >> i don't know if he did. >> to get into police work? >> you know, i want to point out

and i'll clarify my relationship with george. i describe him as a close friend because i'm the only one who's speaking out for him. but my relationship with george is more of an older uncle. i'm old enough to be his father. >> well, right. all the more reason for him to confide in you and to talk to you and to seek advice about all of life's -- all of life's mysteries. i mean, i think, you know, the questions i'm asking, they should be questions you should -- you ought to be able to answer as someone who is an uncle figure or a mentor, someone older than george. >> yeah, we've had those discussions before at family gatherings. but you have to understand that at those family gatherings, george was probably the only one who wasn't drinking, for one. for another, you know, the discussions that you're talking about that you think we should have had in order to validate whether or not i, you know,

should be here talking on his behalf, those are discusses i'm sure he had with his father. i mean, the discussions that i've had with george have been in general have been about are, you know, are mutual acquaintances about what's going on with each other. >> so you're not -- >> and it's not something that you're going to take notes about. >> mr. oliver, just to be clear, you're not a close friend of george zimmerman. at best, judging by your last answer, you're really just an acquaintance. >> well, the close was not ever my term. that close term was coined ever since i came forward to speak on his behalf. >> joe, i -- joe -- >> i'm sorry, go ahead, lawrence. i know this is your show. >> go ahead. >> so george zimmerman never talked to you about, you know, being a part of the neighborhood -- being a part of the neighborhood watch, about what that meant to him, about what it meant to him to serve his community? he never talked to you about that?

>> i've never asked him specifically what that meant for him to do it. >> but he never volunteered it. >> joe -- >> no, because i never asked. >> -- it's lawrence o'donnell. i have to say i never use the phrase "close friend" because i didn't have enough evidence to say close friend. when i discovered in why own investigation that you were in the same workplace, that seemed to be the only place you might find yourself in a situation alone with him because you said all of your interactions had been family based. the problem is that you have identified on this show that the only reason -- the only reason you believe george zimmerman's account of what happened is your own personal gut feeling. that is not good enough for america, joe, and you have to know that. that is not good enough for a jury, joe, and i have to know that. you have to know, joe, that you would not be a witness in this case. except for the fact -- >> i don't want to be a witness in this case.

>> you may be because you had an unprotected conversation with him on saturday that is relevant to the case. and so you should be subpoenaed and questioned under oath about exactly what he talked to you about. and if you're not, that's an incompetent investigation going on in florida. has anyone reached out to you from law enforcement since you publicly said you had a conversation with zimmerman on saturday and asked to interview you and up you under oath about that conversation? >> no, no one has. >> joe, you're a mystery man to me because you're doing this on such a slim basis of a gut feeling. you've given up your job. you know, i don't understand how you give up your job and your income to go out here and do this public relations job for george zimmerman. i don't understand how you can afford to do this. it's strange seeming behavior, joe. it doesn't add up to me. then yesterday on "hardball," you were saying these wildly nutty thichks about that racial

slur, just anything you could say to defend this guy on the basis of nothing but a gut feeling. your role in this, joe, just doesn't make sense to me. >> well, it just doesn't make sense -- and i'll agree with you. my role in it -- i'll agree -- just doesn't make sense. but because of the person that i know, that i've grown to know over the past years, that, you know, i've seen even more since you've revealed that we are coworkers since he got his job that, you know, you've got to validate for yourself and reconcile for yourself whether or not, you know, this is a bad person. well, this is not a bad person. this is a very good person. who grew from his previous mistakes some seven years ago. and if you ever got to know him, you wouldn't even suspect that he had those problems some seven years ago. >> we've got to go but you don't even have a consistent story.

you told us you don't know what his mace taistakes were. you said he didn't do anger management, then he did. you don't know if his current wife knew about his previous fiancee's violent complaints and the injunction against him that the previous fiancee got. there is so much and you go on national television, cnn, all these other shows and you say to america, believe me, i can vouch for the man who shot and killed trayvon martin because i, joe oliver, have a completely inexplicable and unjustifiable gut feeling. joe, it is not good enough for america. >> it is good enough for me. >> you can't even say that it predates -- it predates what you know of him because you say you know him for the last six years. that is the period over which he has called 911 on people in his community 46 times. did he talk to you about any of

those 46 times that he called 911 on people in that community? yes or no? >> why would he? >> that's right. >> you don't know this man. thank you. appreciate it. >> and you don't know this man either. >> but i'm not on television claiming to know him. that is what you are doing, sir. i am not claiming to know anyone in this case. i have not met martin or zimmerman. you are claiming to be a friend or confidante or aunt or uncle, and you don't know anything about george zimmerman, that he's on the phone all the time thinking people are suspicious whether or not there's 7 or 9 years old playing in a driveway or whether he's calling on trayvan martin. you know a little bit about this guy. and you're relating something based, like you said, on a gut feeling. like you said, you would not

declare yourself as a close friend of george zimmerman, and that's it. >> and i know enough about george zimmerman -- >> thank you. >> -- to put myself in this position. >> joe, i want to thank you very much for coming in tonight. you can go off and do other television interviews, and they're all going to be easier than this one. you knew that before this one started. i appreciate you coming in and doing this tonight. it was more than the lawyer representing george zimmerman was willing to do last night. he sat in that chair you are sitting in tonight, and i thank you for spending extra time with us tonight. joe oliver, i think you've clarifiied a lot about where ths position comes from. thank you very much for joining us. >> you're welcome. we're taking a break. we'll be joined by jonathan capehart, natalie jackson, one of the attorneys for the family and, of course, charles blow. and we will get to rachel maddow. e was out of her reach. until she heard about the value plan. dollar for dollar, nobody protects you like allstate.

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i have three people who are absolutely stunned about y ened they just heard by joe oliver. jonathan capehart and natalie jackson are going to join me to talk about what we just heard here. and rachel maddow is going to join me later. [ donovan ] i hit a wall.

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and we're back with charles blow, "new york times" columnist and jonathan capehart, opinion writer for "the washington post." and we're joined by natalie jackson, co-counsel for the martin family. natalie, based on what you just heard, do you think that joe oliver should be questioned by the investigators in this case about the substance of his

conversation with george zimmerman on saturday? >> i definitely think he needs to be questioned. that's called an admission by party. whatever information that george zimmerman gave him will be valuable information for this investigation. >> charles, today you tweeted, i think while watching joe oliver on tv this morning with maybe soledad o'brien on cnn, "please someone put me on tv with joe oliver." i saw that knowing that we had joe oliver booked yesterday. we had him booked. >> you set me up. >> i didn't set you up. i said, okay, we're getting charles. i know it's frustrating. a strange experience. >> yes. i mean -- well, you quickly come away with the idea -- and he admitted it tonight -- he is not a close friend of george zimmerman. he could not even contact george zimmerman. george zimmerman has not contacted him. he admits himself that he had not seen george zimmerman until since a week before the shooting of trayvon martin.

that to me does not sound like a close friend, an uncle or anything else. and that is what we needed to hear him say out of his own mouth, and that's what he said tonight. >> jonathan capehart, joe oliver used to be a cn nf nchltcnn rep. he knows the tools of the trade. he knew what was going to happen when he came out publicly. we discovered tonight he did indeed work in the same place as george zimmerman, something i discovered in my investigation today. he thinks there's things about his relationship with zimmerman that he can protect and keep secret while he tells the world, trust my gut feeling and nothing but my gut feeling that george is telling the truth. >> right. and that's so not going to work, not under normal circumstances and certainly not under circumstances like this where there is a dead 17-year-old boy who was unarmed at the hands of someone who he wants us to

believe is his close friend, george zimmerman, but so close of a friend, someone who he said i'm older than george. he looks at me like an uncle. like a mentor, even. and yet this same person doesn't talk to him about his dreams and aspirations. he knows that george zimmerman was majoring in criminal justice, yet he doesn't know about any attempts by zimmerman to join law enforcement, any of the rejections or the acceptances. i mean, from everything that charles was able to get out of him in terms of whether he was really a good friend of george zimmerman's or not, plus my being able to just find out that if you are a really good friend and you know this person is trying to get into law enforcement and that's something that this person really wants to do, you know about that. you know what they want to do. you know what they've been trying to do. close friends know that. even very strong acquaintances know that.

given the interview he just gave here tonight, he's not even a close acquaintance. he's just some guy. >> natalie jackson, i think we just rip add wped away the vene what the joe oliver tv act is. inexplicable, i just confessed to the audience that he's dropped everything, his job, his income simply to go on television on the basis of nothing other than than when you get right down to it, than a gut feeling he must have been counting on, and he's gotten an awful lot of softball interviews on television that made him think he could get away with that. >> yeah, this is a man who has inserted himself into this. he's not a witness in this case. he can't provide anything valuable to the trial. he doesn't know, he was not there. you brought home a point, and i do hope these investigators talk to him. i hope that they get whatever

stories -- he's put about three versions of george zimmerman's story. i believe that he's vetting his story through the press. i believe that that is what he's doing and our team believes that. but we've kind of ignored the joe oliver. we are looking for an arrest in this case. everything else is up to the jury. there were witnesses that were actually there. >> natalie, before we go, i want to read you something that angela corey, the special prosecutor, said. she said, "it's possible that we'll just make a decision without the grand jury." now, it seems to me in my experience the only decision they would dare to make without the grand jury is to go ahead and prosecute. >> and i agree with that. now, we are still under the impression that the grand jury will go on april 10th. that is what we are going with. however, we need look no further than zimmerman's words. we have tapes with zimmerman's own words. these a-holes get away.

he's running away. i'm going after him. we have that. that is enough to arrest george zimmerman. and to have a jury and a trial listen to what happened and not the joe olivers of the world. >> that's all the time we have tonight. i want to thank you all for listening to that interview, for participating in it, jonathan and charles. >> thank you, lawrence. >> natalie jackson, thank you very much for joining me. rachel maddow is going to be here next. and on small business saturday they remind a nation of the benefits of shopping small. on just one day, 100 million of us joined a movement... and main street found its might again. and main street found its fight again. and we, the locals, found delight again. that's the power of all of us. that's the power of all of us. that's the membership effect of american express. i'm here to unleash my inner cowboy.

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that began in 2004 to help prepare kids from birth to age 5 for school and life. i will have nose those military options. i will take those crippling sanctions and put them in place, and i will speak out to the iranian people about the peril of them becoming nuclear. it's pretty straightforward, in my view. if barack obama gets re-elected, iran will have a nuclear weapon, and the world will change. >> mitt romney has now discovered a bigger problem in the world than iran. >> if he's planning on doing more and suggests to russia that he has things he's willing to do with them he's not willing to tell the american people, this is to russia, this is, without question, our number one geopolitical foe. >> joining me now, msnbc's rachel maddow, host of "the rachel maddow show," and now the

author of "drift." now, rachel. >> yes. >> i notice that in our politics, in our world, nothing has really changed between romney saying iran is the worst thing in the world, and now russia. the only thing that i've seen happen is the publication of your book, "drift" by rachel maddow. did he read something in this book that got him suddenly really anti-russian? >> he read about reagan's private outside the cia of team bean zealots that russia had all the stuff we didn't have so he could justify a giant defense budget. maybe he's thinking about reviving those guys. that's possible. >> it is amazing that mitt romney can flip like that just as soon as he hears something to exploit in foreign policy. what does that give you, based on your work here in the book and watching it in general. mitt romney as manager of

foreign policy is not something we've been discussing. what's your sense of how that would go if the country made that mistake? >> he is not a guy who has ever prioritized foreign policy. he's inherited it in terms of who we brought on in the campaign. but he's trying to sell himself as presidential enough to make a plausible foreign policy gut check kind of argument. and so he talks about i will tell the iranian people. and we're all meant as the american people to think, are they going to listen to him? and he thinks that we're going to look at him and think that. it's something that republicans traditionally, over our lifetime, have thought they've had the advantage on. i don't think they have the advantage on it anymore, but it's interesting to try to see these guys compete with each other without competing about much this time around. >> i want to read something about one of my favorite pages because it's a senate debate on the first iraq war, a debate i

was there for on the senate floor, and it was one of the most innobling debates i witnessed. there was no questioning people's motivations. some people were in favor of giving the president the authority to do it. others were opposed to it. and no one called anybody names. and you note that in here. i want to read something that a senator said. at that time war is about fire and steel and people dying. if the sons and daughters of all of us of the president, the vice president, the cabinet were all over there in the persian bustle right up on the front line and were going to be part of that first assault wave that would go on into kuwait, i think we'd be taking more time. i think we'd be working harder on the sanctions policy. i think we'd be trying to squeeze saddam hussein in every other way that we could short of a shooting war. and it turns out that don regal was on to one of the themes of this book which is we have

disconnecteded war from the american experience of 99% of this population. >> i'm so glad you zoomed in on that. both regal's point, that's exactly how i see it. that was the right debate to have because congress still had some sense, whether or not we started that war would depend on them. so they debated it as if americans' lives depended on it. and that's the way the constitution is set up in terms of how we're supposed to make democratically deflected decisions. yes, we have a commander in chief in the president, but it is the representatives of the people who are supposed to decide this thing. so to have that debate before we started that way, it was hyperpartisan, and that ferreted out weak arguments. that's the way it's supposed to be. i don't want to make it seem like gulf war i wasn't perfect. it's about whether or not we feel engaged. and that was such a shorter war

and had such less of an impact on us in terms of our national security compared to the second iraq war. but consider the difference and how connected we as a people felt compared to how to spot it. >> are you taking personal questions about the book? >> yes. >> where did you find time to do this? i don't have time to read the paper. >> you see this? >> oh, yeah. >> that's what it is. i worked on it -- i got this book contract before i got a job at msnbc. i tried to give it back. i quit. i failed. i said there's no way i can get it done. eventually my guilt wore me down, and i worked on it like a second job. >> rachel maddow, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> lawrence, thank you. the reverend al sharpton is going to get tonight's "last word oimt that's logistics. ♪

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tonight, "the last word" goes to reverend al sharpton who did his show tonight from his mother's hometown in bm bam where her funeral was held today. ada sharpton was 87 years old. >> when she was born in this state in 1925, she didn't have the right to vote. she had to sit in backs of buses growing up. she couldn't use a water fountain. couldn't stay in a hotel we stayed in here last night. when she passed, today we lady a letter at her funeral to her family, to the president of the united states who happened to be an african-american. we've come a long way in 87 years. welcome to "the ed show" from new york. the biggest development in